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Jan 11

Jenova Chen Explains Journey: Social Relevance and Artistic Inspirations

Sid Shuman's Avatar Posted by on Jan 11, 2011 // Director, SIEA Social Media

Journey: Jenova Chen Interview

I recently had the pleasure of meeting with Jenova Chen, the creative director of thatgamecompany and designer of flOw and Flower. Chen’s latest project, the upcoming PSN exclusive Journey, may be his most enigmatic project yet. In talking with Chen, I was most interested in learning what drove his unique, minimalistic vision, as well as the challenges in creating a drop-in, drop-out online multiplayer game without the use of industry-standard matchmaking lobbies and voice chat.

Sid Shuman: Journey’s got a certain mystique. Who are you in Journey? Where are you?

Jenova Chen: I want the player to find it out, it’s part of the fun. This is a world where there are no plants, no animals, and not even a single water drop to be found. The only things that are moving are these things, these characters, made out of cloth.

Journey Journey

SS: Journey’s a multiplayer game, but there’s no matchmaking or online lobbies. Would you say it redefines multiplayer? Is it a co-op game?

JC: We’re not really redefining. We make games for PS3 owners, but we also make games for their relatives or children. I don’t think your grandma is going to know what a [multiplayer] “lobby” means. I don’t think most children will understand what [internet] “latency” means. So after we eliminated the lobby concept, we had very few choices — other players have to be able to connect at any time, not just the beginning of the game, and a player has to be able to finish the game by himself he can’t find someone. All these technical issues came in with that one decision to get rid of the online lobby.

A lot of games design co-op for co-op play only. The best game I’ve played this year was Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light. It’s very well designed, like a designer’s jewelry box. But it wouldn’t work for Journey. What if the other player wasn’t there? So we have to come up with other ways to make co-op more meaningful. We wanted something very primal, which forced us to make innovations.

We didn’t try to redefine multiplayer, we just wanted to create a more intuitive experience. If your grandma asked, “what’s Journey?” I’d tell her “Journey is just like hiking. You go to hike a mountain, and there are other hikers you might meet and if you like them you can hike with them.” And that’s it.

Journey: Jenova Chen Interview

SS: What’s the core gameplay goal in Journey? What activities will I be engaging in?

JC: You will be…Journey-ing. Moving from point A to point B. [laughter] The problem is, moving is very boring. In World of Warcraft, you’re always moving…and waiting. So in Journey, we have things to spice up the moving. You can surf the sand dunes, collect cloth to fly over larger distances, cooperate with another player to get faster travel…sometimes you can ride things.

SS: It also looks like you’re collecting cloth patches, which seem to open up bridges or paths to other areas…

JC: Usually, players think about collecting as a “level up” experience. But we wanted to make the player feel small and weak. So initially, we did have a level up experience — if you collected 20 patches, you would jump higher or fly further. But that felt too empowering, which is the opposite of what we wanted. So instead of acquiring power, we made this metaphor for borrowing power. There are patches in the world, and when they hear your call, they come to help you out. Once you use them, they return to where they were. It’s not an ownership situation.

It also has to do with multiplayer. People would say, “I don’t want to play with you, I don’t want you to take my precious resources!” We tried various ways to eliminate that, but in the end, we decided to not give you [permanent] possession of them.

Journey: Jenova Chen Interview

SS: Surfing on waves of sand looks like an interesting way to get around this very dynamic, shifting environment. It’s such a simple pleasure — a bit like Flower, actually.

JC: We had problems with walking. It’s frustrating, but there’s no easy way to make walking fun. So we tried surfing, because as a gameplay mechanic it’s fun — you know, SSX. But you could surf on the slopes but not on the flat surfaces, and most of the game is flat. So we had to come up with a reason why you could surf, so we made the sand have waves.

SS: Does Journey use any buttons?

JC: There are two buttons right now. “Calling” lets you collect patches and communicate with another player, a very primal form of communication. And then there’s a “Fly” button.

SS: I noticed that the camera is controlled by the DualShock 3’s Sixaxis motion sensor, not the analog stick.

JC: I have seen various non-hardcore players try a first-person shooter, and they couldn’t even aim. The two-stick camera system, using them at the same time, is just very difficult. It takes time to train. And every time I see a player struggle with that, he just puts the game down. So I wanted to think about a more intuitive form of camera control. The other problem with a stick camera, particularly in a third-person game, is that people tend to adjust the camera very often and very rapidly. When I watch them play, I get dizzy. And I want people to be able to watch others play Journey.

SS: Why does jumping not require a button press?

JC: We used to have a jump button, but we wanted to simplify the game. When you can jump, during the boring walk [laughs] people would keep jumping. And that’s not what we wanted to see! After we removed the jump button, people said “we want to jump!” So we added an automatic jump, and it’s working pretty well. I do miss pressing the X button sometimes when I’m walking, though!

SS: Are there enemies in Journey?

JC: There is something like an enemy, there is. [laughter] Nature is your enemy. If there is an enemy, you can’t do anything about it. You’re small and weak. You can’t slay the Shadow of the Colossus!

Journey: Jenova Chen Interview

SS: Did any particular artist inspire the visual style of Journey?

JC: Do you know Chirico? If you see the original Japanese cover art of Ico, it’s an homage to Chirico. At an early stage, that was an inspiration.

SS: Journey is a very different kind of multiplayer game. Is it important for developers to challenge preconceived notions about what makes a multiplayer game?

JC: It’s important because your brain can be stimulated intellectually, emotionally, and socially. When people design online games, they often do lazy work. They bring an existing single-player game — an RPG, an RTS, a fighting game, a shooter — and duct tape on some online technology. They say, “okay, there’s multiple players, now do something cool. Here, play a kid’s game like Capture the Flag.” That’s the level of design. “Why don’t you kill each other until the last guy is left standing.”

If you really wanted to stimulate a social activity, you need to re-think it from the ground up. What is the skill they’re supposed to acquire? Accuracy? Or is it the ability to convince others? If the skill is social, it’ll be very relevant and useful. People still play poker. Why? Because the skill of deception is useful for real life. Look at online games. How many skills are based on social elements? Most games are based on grinding, accuracy, physical dexterity. They are not social games. They’re just old games with online features.

SS: Now, you’re saying this as a Call of Duty player, aren’t you? You like shooters.

JC: Yeah. I like fighting games too.They’re fun. But as I get older, what’s the point in pulling off another infinite combo? What does that do for your life? It’s not useful. People still play chess because strategic thinking is useful. Brain training games, fitness games…these have relevance. People don’t have much time to waste, so they want relevance. Whether it’s emotional relevance, like experiencing joy or sadness, or intellectual relevance, or social relevance.

SS: What other developers do you think are challenging gaming, perhaps in other areas?

JC: Quantic Dream. Team Ico — everything they make is very rich and deep emotionally. I think LittleBigPlanet is also very interesting. It’s not so much emotional as it is a different frontier. I also really appreciate whoever makes the best first-person shooter. Blizzard is always great, they have a lot of craft. We need those things too, because the game industry has to cover all sides. It’s not that I’m against fighting games or shooters — they need to be there, and they need to be good.

SS: Are you looking forward to BioShock Infinite?

JC: I liked BioShock but I didn’t finish it. I think I didn’t appreciate it as much as the fans, but I totally get the philosophies. I will try [Ken Levine’s] new game…it’s relevant. It’s not just about being strong and killing enemies. I appreciate that.

//Add Your Own

65 Comments   12 Replies

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+ NESGamepro on January 11th, 2011 at 7:00 pm said:

Great interview, I love unique games like this. I’d like to see an interview with the people making Sorcery.


+ Weshzu on January 11th, 2011 at 9:01 pm said:

hey i was wondering will jenova chen consider implementing this game as a move compatible game?


+ Hockymn264 on January 11th, 2011 at 11:06 pm said:

I’m also digging the developer interviews. Requests : Ken Levine, David Jaffe, someone at Telltale games, and Kristen Bell….

Wait, that last one wasn’t a developer…she voiced Lucy in AC…I’d argue that’s close enough…


+ linlinjian on January 12th, 2011 at 5:39 am said:

I’m also digging the developer interviews. Requests : Ken Levine, David Jaffe, someone at Telltale games, and Kristen Bell….

Wait, that last one wasn’t a developer…she voiced Lucy in AC…I’d argue that’s close enough…


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+ eZenuzet on January 12th, 2011 at 5:49 am said:

i hate it whem im hearing “we want to simplify…” grrrr…


+ backhawk124 on January 12th, 2011 at 6:40 am said:

These Interviews are awesome. Now please interview Hideo Kojima and Tetsuya Nomura. Ah, and the Persona guys and David Cage!


+ VectorRaven on January 12th, 2011 at 7:17 am said:

I was quite impressed by this interview. Jenova Chen is an interesting man. Keep these interviews coming Sir. Learned much more about this visual piece of art today. Flow, Flower and now Journey to complete the collection. Oh and does Kellee still have that beautiful pink hair? ;-)


+ OnePieceAnime on January 12th, 2011 at 8:24 am said:

Great interview.

I am really excited to see Journey released.
I like how creative the company is.
I wasn’t a big fan of flow, but Flower was great.

Will they be a release date announced any time soon?
Was hoping there would be more info released last E3,
but nothing was really announced.

It is great they keep their games reasonably priced also.


+ mingmister on January 12th, 2011 at 9:50 am said:

looks interesting this game!!!


+ kikaz on January 12th, 2011 at 3:16 pm said:

@Sid Shuma: we need you to interview Fumito Ueda-san or anyone on Team Ico. We want TLG and the HD Collection insights.

Please also interview Blue Point games so we can learn the behind the scenes challenges, failures, and successes with GoW Collection as well as the Team ICO Collection. I especially want to know if they considered bonus content as well as dealing with 3D and Team ICO.


+ kikaz on January 12th, 2011 at 3:16 pm said:

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+ kikaz on January 12th, 2011 at 3:17 pm said:

Does it go without saying I’m very interested in Journey! :~) I bought flow after trying the demo, so I hope there is a demo for this as well.


+ Ztnepres on January 12th, 2011 at 8:05 pm said:

Great read. Jenova is the man. We need more minds like him in the gaming industry.
Nice developer interview! How about one for titan studios? I’m curious to what they are working on now and what they took from fat princess.

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